The big news here is bookshops disappearing (our Borders has just gone under) and really I’m not surprised in many ways. It’s hard to compete with we-got-everythin’ Amazon and certainly piling up books like cheap cookies is not going to do it. People can only read so much per week and we shouldn’t be shovelling them away like junk food anyway…we’ll end up with unhealthy minds and bodies. Choosing, buying, borrowing, reading books…it’s a slow process often and that’s when it’s at its best (I think). Any industry can only survive if people purchase regularly and the bigger the industry the more they need us to buy…this is part of the problem for the book industry…it doesn’t allow time for the consumers to actually read any damn books (we are meant to be out buying more all the time!).

On greats self-publishing…there are examples from more recent times (I’m no expert on this but people are always coming up with them online). One site I looked at just now mentioned John Grisham! Whether he is a great or not is something I’m not going to debate right now.

On libraries…so much has been published in the past few decades that most libraries could be kept busy working their way through some of the backlog (without need for a new book for years). Now, that’s not ideal but it does show part of the problem. We are awash with books from all directions and whilst in some ways that is a great thing…in others it is overwhelming. We can hardly keep track of all the books we could be reading. Reading blogs can take our mind off it all, of course…

And then finally…on writers…one of the things that always bothers me in debates like this is the ‘them and us’ mentality that often appears. It seems that once a writer is published by someone else (no matter how small the publisher, whether it is run by their wife etc.) they can suddenly take on a slightly superior air (‘I am a properly published writer…others should bow before me’ etc.). There are realms of this stuff online and off and I sometimes wonder if I would get that disease should I ever be ‘lucky’ enough to get picked up by any kind of proper publisher. I hope not. It is such a waste of energy and though I know it’s partly to do with protecting livelihood it does not help the argument about quality at all.

Eventually readers and listeners will always track down good stories, good sounds, good use of words – wherever and whoever they come from. How they do it is very much on the move just now and I kind of like it, personally.

Surprisingly pleasant chattin’ with you. Usually disagreements bring me out in a rash.

x

Rachel,

I wouldn’t necessarily say the post “ride[s] roughshod over the truth.” Yes, it is a bit hyperbolic, intentionally so. But if you read the original post I was referring to a world where the big houses have essentially been put out of business completely, and self-publishing is the only game in town.

With that in mind, I do want to comment on a few things you pointed out as untruths:

Is it really only self-publishing that produces a lot of crap books? Taken a look at what some of the ‘proper’ publishers are putting out these (or any) days? Quite a lot of crap. And quite a lot of the same thing over and over…and over.

And I never claimed that it was only self-publishing that produces crap books. But I will say that no matter how samey-samey crappy you find the offerings from commercial houses these days, they are at least grammatically correct and properly spelled (sure, the occasional typo slips in, but on the whole.) Whereas the slush pile of that same publisher is full of books which are not either of those things, and in addition do not tell coherent stories, in coherent worlds, populated by characters who are more than simply nametags. Courtesy prevents me from actually quoting some of the material of this nature I’ve seen, but I’ll try to make up a representative example:

Amy walked down the street on her furst day of work, she was so excited! It was time to open the cafe for the first time. The day was finaly here! She only hoped her boyfriend Bob would come in to have a visit, because it was always so exciting to see him! And today she could tell him she was pregnate! He would be so excited, because, he said he wanted to have a baby and so did she, now they culd get married, and they would be so happy.
She was worried, because her father might find her….. He’d said he wouldnt ever stop trying to find her and he hit her and thats why she run away. But now she was working, at the cafe, and that was good, because she and bob needed the money, especially for when the baby came, if they were going to be a real family.

Again, I’m not saying all slush is like this. Editors and agents say it is, but I haven’t seen it. But I assure you, I’ve seen lots of writing like the above. And lots that’s a lot better but is still dull or cliched. Not all NY books are bad, just like not all self-published books are bad, but I’m betting the statistics are in commercial publishing’s favor.

Didn’t lots of great writers start off with some self-publishing before being picked up by the propers? I’m no historian but I imagine that as long as there has been publishing there has always been some self-publishing too. No?

Yes, lots of great writers started out with some self-publishing…hundreds of years ago, when they had no choice. Now I believe most great writers start out in commercial publishing. Yes, there has always been self-publishing. Yes, it’s good for some writers and has been beneficial to them (although again, I think the numbers greatly favor commercial publishing). I didn’t deny that in my post at all.

OK, the computer age has seen an explosion of self-publishing…but it will settle down once the novelty wears off. Probably.

And that’s possible. But my post dealt with a world where it did not.

The world of book publishing and selling is going through a period of extreme change. Who knows how it’s going to turn out? It’s quite exciting I think.

I agree.

Lots of people in effect get published via who they know (to an extent). If you don’t know anyone you have to self-publish!

And here, I apologize, but I must say that this is absolutely incorrect. Totally, completely incorrect. Every single published writer I know, including myself, didn’t “know anyone” when they/I started out. So we queried agents. We were offered representation by agents who liked our queries enough to read our books, and liked our books enough to think they could sell them, and then did sell them. I don’t know a single writer who got published because they were pals with an editor, or their aunt was an agent, or whatever. Not one.

If you don’t know anyone, you query, just like everyone else. Who you know doesn’t matter. Your work is what matters. Period.

All the stuff about how the non-rich read…remember those old-fashioned places…libraries! They are what we need to concentrate on protecting and taking into the 21st century. Public libraries, I’m talking about. Use them, or lose them and worry less about publishing.

My comment about the lack of accessibility for the poor was a reply to the “Oh, they’ll find books on the internet” argument, first of all. Second, where are libraries going to get books, if there are no publishers? Self-published POD books tend to be at least twice the price of mass-market books; POD hardcovers seem to average about 50% more expensive than commercially published hardcovers. Libraries (already in financial trouble, and yes, we should do what we can to support them) will have a hard time affording as many books. And why go to the library to get books which don’t interest you anyway, because they haven’t been vetted or edited? Where will libraries get these books; are librarians to be expected to spend all day, every day, hunting through various websites to find books which might be good, and then buying them directly from the authors? The expense in time and money would be staggering and prohibitive.

This article from “Library Juice” may interest you:

http://libraryjuicepress.com/blog/?p=861

You may also find it interesting to visit the American Library Association website and see how many publishers are “Library Champions,” which means they donate above a certain amount to the ALA. Also check out how many publishers pay to exhibit at library conferences, and how much they donate to set up literacy programs at libraries nationwide, and the ALA/APA Partnership. Publishers pay a large and active role in supporting public libraries.

Where will that money come from, without publishers?

What do you think?

I think I’ve really enjoyed hearing your thoughts, and say thanks for the opportunity to discuss this with you.

Anyway, Kane’s argument, as quoted here, is exciting and persuasive and I don’t disagree with all of it. However like many exciting arguments it does ride a bit roughshod over the truth perhaps.

Like…
Is it really only self-publishing that produces a lot of crap books? Taken a look at what some of the ‘proper’ publishers are putting out these (or any) days? Quite a lot of crap. And quite a lot of the same thing over and over…and over.
And…
Didn’t lots of great writers start off with some self-publishing before being picked up by the propers? I’m no historian but I imagine that as long as there has been publishing there has always been some self-publishing too. No?
And…
OK, the computer age has seen an explosion of self-publishing…but it will settle down once the novelty wears off. Probably.
And…
The world of book publishing and selling is going through a period of extreme change. Who knows how it’s going to turn out? It’s quite exciting I think.
And…
Lots of people in effect get published via who they know (to an extent). If you don’t know anyone you have to self-publish!
And finally…
All the stuff about how the non-rich read…remember those old-fashioned places…libraries! They are what we need to concentrate on protecting and taking into the 21st century. Public libraries, I’m talking about. Use them, or lose them and worry less about publishing.

What do you think?

That might do for now.
x

Here I am, working fingers to the bone on a first novel of such brilliance and poignancy it makes me weep to think of it, all in the certainty that none but my nearest and dearest will ever read it (and only then if I bribe them).

Still at least it leaves me with a good excuse to drown the sorrows in whiskey. I’m a writer, see, we’re supposed to be drunks…